Block-Grubel size of government debate
News, Political ·Saturday May 21, 2011 @ 21:38 EDT (link)
We went up to BC to visit relatives in Abbotsford, and to attend a size of government debate between Dr. Walter Block (anarcho-capitalist) and Dr. Herbert Grubel (neoconservative? minarchist?) I was having some trouble confirming details about the debate, such as whether we could get in without an RSVP to an email address we didn't know about (we and another couple, at least, had seen the earlier note about the debate, possibly linked from Dr. Block's Facebook page), but the more recent post was more welcoming ("So, if you're in the neighborhood, c'mon down.") That's part of the reason we waited until the last minute to call Uncle John and Aunt Sharon about stopping in; and it was surprising that they weren't busy given how involved with church, local government, and associations they are. They kindly invited us up for dinner before the debate (others were eating at the restaurant, Cheers, starting at 1800, debate at 1900, but I had no idea what the restaurant was like, or if it was restaurant at all, and not a hall with the Cheers "catering service" providing limited refreshment). We had a nice visit with them and Grandma, arriving at 1430 and leaving to head over to North Vancouver at about 1730.
We made good time despite construction on the Trans-Canada, and got to the location (parking in the garage underneath/out back) at about 1830. It was indeed a fairly typical restaurant; it's in a busy downtown area, so space is at a premium and they try to make the most of it; it appeared above "greasy spoon" and below "fine dining"; since we'd eaten we only ordered a Coke. It was $2 apiece for the debate (possibly for the cost of the room; much more reasonable than the $60 the Libertarian Party of Canada wanted for entry into their convention): the group had a medium-sized room with tables arranged in a horseshoe with the debaters and moderator Paul at the center. Dr. Block brought his son Matthew and Dr. Grubel brought his wife Helen.
Dr. Block talked about principles, focusing on the non-aggression principle and the immorality of harming innocent people.
Dr. Grubel came to a different debate entirely, and talked about his work in government and a graph not in evidence that showed somehow that economic freedom was maximized when government took 22% of all income (and baked it into pies, for all we know). He never answered Dr. Block on the principles of even the existence of government. There was a complete disconnect; some of the fallacies he committed included: ad hominem (calling Dr. Block "utopian", "idealistic", and so forth), appeal to tradition, appeal to ridicule, begging the question (assuming the ends, i.e., government, without defending them, and then claiming "we know" for facts not in evidence), post hoc (his alleged chart did not isolate for causes). Some other errors were failing to read Rothbard (and thus learning that libertarians are not utopian), and assertion that anarchists is against organization and would have to do everything for themselves from scratch (anarchist only oppose coercion, not voluntary organization: associations, businesses, etc.).
I asked Dr. Grubel if he was aware of Hume's guillotine, and if he was a utilitarian; he said he was. I asked if he would support the killing all black males of a certain age (in retrospect I felt bad about any racist implications in the question, and in future will borrow Rothbard's example of redheads when he destroyed utilitarianism) if it was shown that doing so maximized utility; he said that he would not, because it would be immoral—i.e., other principles must come into play. Not a pure utilitarian (maybe nobody is?); what are his fundamental political philosophical principles, i.e., where would he advocate the use of force? The libertarian answer is clear.
I would liked to have seen the debate as a whole be about fundamental principles, although it was good that Dr. Block could discuss libertarian organization of private police, courts, and defense, homesteading, and the like.
I got to talk to Dr. Block briefly at the end, and his son Matthew, and he sent an email out to those of us in Seattle to let us know about each other.
We left the place at around 2115, and got home just after midnight.
Books finished: Faith of the Fallen.
